tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post1125221047379198988..comments2024-03-01T07:35:49.740-08:00Comments on Come Reason's Apologetics Notes: What's Wrong With "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus"?Lenny Espositohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-54560337500357458422015-03-21T17:45:41.329-07:002015-03-21T17:45:41.329-07:00I think it is safe to say that most people recogni...I think it is safe to say that most people recognize a connotation of "religion" as a system of ritualistic or legalistic traditions which (in the Apostle Paul's words) "void grace." In your literalism and criticism of Jeff Bethke, you have ignored this valid connotation which fits Bethke's examples and meta narrative; and so, you have failed to correctly analyze and grasp his meaning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-40556803487350009792015-03-21T17:44:40.930-07:002015-03-21T17:44:40.930-07:00I think it is safe to say that most people recogni...I think it is safe to say that most people recognize a connotation of "religion" as a system of ritualistic or legalistic traditions which (in the Apostle Paul's words) "void grace." In your literalism and criticism of Jeff Bethke, you have ignored this valid connotation which fits Bethke's examples and meta narrative; and so, you have failed to correctly analyze and grasp his meaning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-76663535292003144292012-03-01T09:49:08.823-08:002012-03-01T09:49:08.823-08:00Hi Mike,
Thanks for the feedback. I understand y...Hi Mike,<br /><br />Thanks for the feedback. I understand your concern that I may be sounding a bit harsh towards Jefferson, but that wasn't my intent. When I engage in dialogue with others I am sensitive to their needs. See the articles at http:///www.comereason.org for examples of this.<br /><br />However, here I was not trying to talk to Bethke directly, but to the larger Christian community as I've heard these sentiments before. They can be dangerous, as my conversation with the woman illustrates. To his credit, Bethke received the criticism offered by others well as I noted in one of the comments above. <br /><br />This video may have drawn some to Christianity. Given the enormous popularity and the reposting of the video, I think it also falsely assured others who are not saved into thinking everything is OK, since they don't follow any specific religion. It's hard to tell. But, if the Gospel is life-saving news for every man, then we should handle it with the skill of a surgeon. We must make sure we are preaching the Gospel as it's revealed biblically, and that means we must do our homework so we don't accidentally cut the very artery that makes the Gospel what it is.Lenny Espositohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-19650707409381614502012-02-28T16:07:04.359-08:002012-02-28T16:07:04.359-08:00I like your clearly stated concern and explanation...I like your clearly stated concern and explanation. The last paragraph concludes nicely. I think perspective is the key here. Bethky seems to be using a perspective that relates to many people that don't know Jesus or understand grace and salvation. There is a large amount of negative thinking when it comes to "the church", and it is a very vague generalization that from a worldly view does not segregate from Catholicism to Christianity or any in between. I believe that this young man has done tremendous good in sharing faith in Jesus to people who you or I normally couldn't reach. I think that maybe this young man has a perspective you may want to try and understand even if his message is slightly skewed.. after all that's how our world is.<br />Feedback: I really just didn't feel love in your review. What I heard is you talking about how this kid doesn't know what he's talking about, and you of course do. It just came off cold like an atheist was debating it.Mike Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13585496240009728574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-87321707169695710752012-01-19T04:35:42.333-08:002012-01-19T04:35:42.333-08:00I wrote a critique on this video a few days ago fo...I wrote a critique on this video a few days ago for my friend. I'll put it altogether another way. Tragically, the ill fated attempt to interpret religion and in the midst thereof to flippantly throw in the Gospel, has polluted or diluted the Gospel. THe throw away lines and the vines that entangle us in superficial christianity, has only served to breed mediocrity, among the saints, there is one who paints, broad and generalised strokes, to all the unsuspecting folkes, who grab hold of slogans and shallow cliche, just so they can hear us say touche, what a brilliant delivery, we yield to our proclivity, the desire for adrenaline activity, that sounds good, in the hood, of christian insensitivity. A rhyme and a line, that sounds just fine, until we unpack it all and realise our own propensity, for junk food intensity, something we call spirituality at the cost of reality. Passion is good, if the thesis is focused, not subscribe to chic theological hocus pocus. Sadly, we are stuck on entertainment for our food and our raiment, one day will find us completely naked because our pride stopped us from trying to fake it. Wake up Church, stop playing the game and chasing the fame. Loose your life and you will find it, use your brain and you will touch the hearts of people. We will account for every word spoken, our every action is not a token.Jordan Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14222420577439673960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-20689828787666242952012-01-18T15:02:43.216-08:002012-01-18T15:02:43.216-08:00I think nothing's wrong with being passionate ...I think nothing's wrong with being passionate with God. Let's just include and apply knowledge in this passion to properly practice this passion.<br /><br />What's wrong with us is that we don't want any standards, we don't want laws, we don't want to take orders from someone. We want total freedom. We want to do everything we want and still get saved in the end. We have our own way of saving ourselves. Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way. But the thought of hating religion and loving Jesus is misleading. Religion teach us how to properly worship. Yes, God has a standard on worshiping. We hate that, don't we? Why don't we just love Him on our own way? Why can't we eat all the fruits in the garden and still love Him?<br /><br />And religion teach us what God wants from us. Another problem with us is that we don't want to sacrifice. We just declare that we love God but we don't want to sacrifice for Him like Jesus did for us. What if, Jesus tells you that He loves you but, "I'm not going to die for you." <br /><br />"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." - Matthew 15:8<br /><br />We need a religion. Not to be saved but to learn how to live properly, in a way God wants us to live.Ken Yamamotohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07515611121778914302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-32610710269688559402012-01-17T07:50:30.144-08:002012-01-17T07:50:30.144-08:00The sort of thinking Bethke's rant cultivates ...The sort of thinking Bethke's rant cultivates must be a tremendous threat to the typical ch-religion-ist (see what I did there with the putting "religion" in "Christ"). If every burnt out, luke-warm, sunday-morning-bystander, stopped showing up or looked for their Relationship outside the established system and stopped funding(tithing) the ch-religion-ist machine, then the majority if not all of these earthly empires("churches"/mega-churches) would collapse and the leaders(pastor/elders/etc) of them would be without power or people to control. <br /><br />And when I say control I refer to the methodical Sunday method, the routine which supplies just enough to sedate and satiate God's children but in fact has become a replacement for the intended Spirit led relationship which we see in the new testament Church.Brian Livesayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15302259809875127745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-16648508788110147252012-01-15T06:34:22.327-08:002012-01-15T06:34:22.327-08:00I believe that Christ died for our sins so that we...I believe that Christ died for our sins so that we could see how easy it is to judge and condemn someone so righteous. What we need to think about on a daily basis is "would we have been a part of his followers or part of his condemners?" It's easy to say that we would follow him, but who may God have put in your life for you to love instead of condemning? I am transforming my philosophy from, <br />"What would Jesus do?" to, "What if this person in front of me is Jesus?" - keeping in mind that there is something to learn from everyone.battleofthebulgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01528744946294108999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-87770289611303153452012-01-14T12:46:37.001-08:002012-01-14T12:46:37.001-08:00I've read several critiques of this video sinc...I've read several critiques of this video since I published this, and I think Kevin DeYoung did a great job taking a critical look at the piece as a whole. More importantly, his instruction and tone were well received by Bathke himself as this follow up shows: http://bit.ly/xRLd51 If everyone were as open and gracious as Bathke in receiving criticism, Christianity would flourish.Lenny Espositohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-85434899231745468792012-01-14T12:45:35.132-08:002012-01-14T12:45:35.132-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lenny Espositohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-35925769112843620172012-01-14T12:40:09.141-08:002012-01-14T12:40:09.141-08:00Hi Nick,
Yes, I did. (In fact, I had to carefully...Hi Nick,<br /><br />Yes, I did. (In fact, I had to carefully pause and repeat the video several times in order to accurately captur the quotes.) I appreciate Bethke's heart and desire to talk about the cross. I am in no way saying that everything from the video is wrong or out of order. My concern was with the generalizations and the easy way in which he grabbed onto a Christian slogan, expounded on it, but didn't stop to consider whether it was really true. And even the, my concern isn't with this video per se, but that such actions are repeated frequently in the church, especially with younger Christians. This is the stuff antagonistic college professors use as a wedge to separate kids from their faith.Lenny Espositohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-16565139787540727132012-01-14T05:33:25.564-08:002012-01-14T05:33:25.564-08:00Wondering if you watched the whole thing as there&...Wondering if you watched the whole thing as there's a fair bit about the cross in there...? Oddly you don't mention this but start talking about ab encounter in Starbucks.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12011856576866283532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-63268554623741594062012-01-14T05:33:10.807-08:002012-01-14T05:33:10.807-08:00Wondering if you watched the whole thing as there&...Wondering if you watched the whole thing as there's a fair bit about the cross in there...? Oddly you don't mention this but start talking about ab encounter in Starbucks.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12011856576866283532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-72037509255783701352012-01-13T20:13:55.832-08:002012-01-13T20:13:55.832-08:00I agree...but I'm not sure if we always respon...I agree...but I'm not sure if we always respond accurately to things like this video. When I see video's like the one this post is talking about I think to myself, "I pray it starts conversations that results in souls being saved". We should probably not bash it but use it as a tool to clarify the gospel to those who needs to hear it. <br /><br />I believe God can use this video. <br /><br />just a thoughtAaron Crumbeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09110945407636382453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-9310699445870685702012-01-13T19:07:40.926-08:002012-01-13T19:07:40.926-08:00Pure religion indeed, Brian. Let God be true...Pure religion indeed, Brian. Let God be true...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252188494793827246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-23548112164879076252012-01-13T16:58:36.885-08:002012-01-13T16:58:36.885-08:00when is someone going to give the biblical definit...when is someone going to give the biblical definition of religion??????? “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” James 1:27 once you establish this definition then the conversation can move one instead of the circular debate with everyone giving the own definition based on tradition, experience, or culture, or whatever.Brian Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16789791840695359796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-16489627428804229832012-01-13T15:39:18.984-08:002012-01-13T15:39:18.984-08:00"such desire should never lead us to rely on ..."such desire should never lead us to rely on slogans over proper theology. You never know who may agree with the slogan but still go away lost."<br /><br />BOOM!chrispobletehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04709408240049761807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-83715036710118559892012-01-13T15:26:52.847-08:002012-01-13T15:26:52.847-08:00Thanks Douglas! I appreciate your input. You'l...Thanks Douglas! I appreciate your input. You'll notice I avoided using the word "poet" given poetry means something specific as well. <br /><br />--<br /><br />Ephirius,<br /><br />I agree with you that passion is a fine thing, but I think the church needs to start stressing passion for proper knowledge. I've always felt that wisdom is knowledge properly applied. We're not called to merely be passionate for our Lord, we're called to seek wisdom.Lenny Espositohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04064209669748618955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-69929941622278118842012-01-13T13:50:57.273-08:002012-01-13T13:50:57.273-08:00This is well put. Another point is artistic: the r...This is well put. Another point is artistic: the recitation is replete with bathos.Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08766692378954258034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6805190.post-24555997209808535972012-01-13T13:23:31.050-08:002012-01-13T13:23:31.050-08:00The people who have the most to say about the oppo...The people who have the most to say about the opposition between Christ and religion as a whole tend to be (in my experience) the people who know the least about theology or Christian history. There's a connection there, and I agree with what you have to say about the topic.<br /><br />It's a shame, because often these people are very passionate but can't tell you why they believe what they believe or even what exactly makes up their worldview. Churches need to engage people on these topics!Ephiriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075474017104766057noreply@blogger.com